Exotic/Disgusting Foods and Beverages Forum--A Badass American Booze

      Back in late 2010 I began hearing about a new kind of alcoholic drink.  It was very controversial--supposedly many young folks who drank it were being hospitalized, or even killed.  Well, I'm human.  Sometimes I'm susceptible to rumors and challenges, so I wanted to see for myself what the fuss was about.  In talking to my friends and fellow archaeologists (most of whom were much younger than I was), I learned that the name of this "demon drink" was Four Loko.  I was told that the secret of its potency was that it had a significant amount of alcohol paired with significant amounts of stimulants such as caffeine and taurine.  The stimulants kept you awake and alert longer, so you didn't realize how drunk you were.  So I bought a can and gave it a go.  I wasn't completely irresponsible though--I drank it in a safe, boring, middle-aged way--I imbibed it in my hotel room, while watching "State of Play" on cable television.  Then I hung out with my friends a bit later.  Long story short, I didn't notice a huge difference between this product and other alcoholic beverages.  There was no need for a hospital visit, or any other hazardous effects.  So, after my "macho" experiment I kind of forgot about Four Loko and moved on.  But flash forward to late 2022.  While in the liquor store buying beer I had a blast from the past.  There on the counter were a couple of new Four Loko offerings.  They were called "Pregame," and came in smaller, 6.8 ounce (or 200 mL) plastic bottles.  I couldn't resist this impulse buy, and snapped up two of them--the Sour Blue Razz kind, and a Lemonade one.

     Some of the historical details about Four Loko come from its official website, and others from alternate online sources.  So I'll use qualifying words where necessary.  Anyway, Four Loko was birthed by three Ohio State University frat brothers--Jaisen Freeman, Jeff Wright, and Chris Hunter.  Supposedly they enjoyed coming up with new alcoholic drinks at their fraternity, especially those that were mixed with stimulants such as caffeine.  In 2005 they began marketing a new concoction called "Four Loko"--the "Four" from the four key ingredients, and the "loko" as an alternative spelling for the Spanish word for "crazy."  By 2008 and 2009 the drink was becoming quite popular.  Especially amongst college students, who found it had quite the "bang for its buck," as a $2 can had the same amount of alcohol as 3 beers, and the same amount of caffeine as 3 cups of coffee.  Alas, there was a downside to this.  Some consumers overindulged, and ended up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning.  Enough so that many colleges started to ban Four Loko on campus, as did several states, including Washington and Michigan.  The negative PR started to swirl around Four Loko, as well as other stimulant-infused alcoholic drinks like Tilt, Sparks, and Joose.  Finally in November of 2010 the U.S. banned this type of alcohol.  Some of these brands were discontinued, while Four Loko and Joose removed the caffeine, taurine, and guarana from their products.

     This modified version of Four Loko continued on.  Four Loko has its Core series, its Sour line, its Innovation series, and the Pregame line.  Their flavors are usually some of kind of fruit, and sour versions are very common, obviously.  The alcohol content ranges from a low of 8% to a high of 14%.  Four Loko products are sold in over 40 countries, on 5 continents.  Its biggest market seems to be much of North, Central, and South America, along with pockets in Europe, China, and Southeast Asia.  It is not sold in one unidentified U.S. state, which I'm going to guess is probably Utah.  Clearly Four Loko is still sensitive about the 2010 hubbub--their Questions and Answers section on their website had several questions dealing with its alleged bad health effects.  For the record, they correctly note that there are no stimulants in Four Loko now, and thus it's as dangerous as any other alcoholic beverage--i.e. if enjoyed responsibly, it's alright.  Some folks clearly pine for its dangerous days though, as cans from the pre-2010 ingredient change are something of a collector's item.  As far as drier business details go, Four Loko is a brand of Phusion Products, LLC out of Wisconsin.  Phusion also owns several other liquor brands, such as Mamitas Tequila Seltzer, Basico Tequila, Basic Vodka, Moksato Life, and Earthquake.  The technical brewer of Four Loko is Minhas Craft Brewery.  Finally, since I haven't yet mentioned this important bit of info, Four Loko is a flavored malt beverage.

Four Loko, orange flavor:  This is the one I had back in 2010.  It was right on the cusp of the changeover to having no stimulants in it.  My memory is that it did have the caffeine, taurine, etc., but it was over a decade ago, so I'm not 100% sure.  Anyway, I recall it tasted orange-y, but definitely boozy, too.  Okay, but not great.  Not really something to savor, but really a vehicle for inebriation, as I'd heard.  Don't know for sure, but its alcohol content was probably about 14%.

Four Loko Pregame, lemonade flavor, 13.9% alcohol:  This had a yellow color, not shockingly, and looked like lemonade.  Not much of a discernable smell, though.  And it tasted like slightly boozy lemonade.  Okay.  Kind of similar to the orange kind as I recall.  Alright for a cheap liquor, but hardly great or anything.  For those who don't get the name for it, "pregaming" is drinking alcoholic drinks before you go out to the bars, festival, sporting event, etc., usually to save some money on said drinks.  That's what this is presumably best for.

Four Loko Pregame, sour blue razz flavor, 13.9% alcohol:  Clearly, this one was blue, but its odor was more lemonade-y.  (Somewhat ironically, since the actual lemonade flavor one didn't smell like lemonade really.)  Its flavor was like raspberry.  A bit artificial, but not bad overall.  Again, rather similar to the previous.  I doubt that many people drink this for the taste--it's just for the alcohol.  There are definitely worse ways to get this.  

     

     Therefore, all in all the ones I tried did what they set out to do, but not much more.  A decent choice for college students on a budget, I suppose.  (And yes, disclaimer, please drink responsibly, don't drink and drive, follow all of those common sense safety rules.)

     Also, if you're curious, "State of Play" was a pretty good political thriller, whether one is under the influence, or stone cold sober. 

 

Extremely Difficult Trivia About "Animal House" (1978)

     Normally I do these trivia quizzes about horror/sci-fi/action movies, but today I'll switch it up a bit and do one about a comedy.  Specifically, the classic "Animal House," which basically revitalized American comedy films forever.  It inspired a whole host of edgy, graphic, and "gross out" movies, for good and for ill.  It's definitely one of my favorites--I've probably seen it at least 12-15 times, and enjoyed every one of these viewings.  It'll be the usual pattern--I'll ask the questions first, followed by the answers.  SPOILERS ahead, clearly.  

Questions:

1)     Who founded Faber College, and when?

2)     What quote is on this founder's statue?

3)     What is the complete Greek name of the antagonistic fraternity that Gregg Marmalard and Neidermeyer belong to?

4)     What four students are Larry and Kent repeatedly introduced to at the evil frat's pledge meeting?

5)     What member of Gregg and Neidermeyer's frat is captain of the swim team?

6)     And which member is the editor of the school paper, The Daily Faberian?

7)     What road sign is on the back of the Delta house's front door?

8)     What is the Delta frat's full Greek name?

9)     In his initial scene Otter is getting ready for a date.  With whom?

10)   What song does D-Day play on his throat?

11)   What class year was Kent Dorfman's brother Fred?

12)   What four actions does Dean Wormer list as being Delta's worst transgressions?

13)   Where is Kent Dorfman from?

14)   While defending Kent, Otter lists the faults of several current Delta members.  What does he say about Stork?

15)   How many pledge members do we see joining Delta House?

16)   Aside from Larry ("Pinto") and Kent ("Flounder"), what two other pledge's nicknames do we see Bluto assign?

17)   How many guys are in the Omega's pledge class?

18)   Professor Dave Jennings lists three reasons why he finds John Milton boring.  What are they?

19)   What are Faber College's school colors?

20)   How long does Jennings say he's been working on his novel?

21)   What is the name of Neidermeyer's horse?

22)   What kind of handgun is used to indirectly kill this horse, via an apparent heart attack?

23)   How many cars is Mayor Carmine DePasto going to lend Faber College for their homecoming parade?

24)   The Delta house gang steal a (fake) test answer sheet, planted by the Omegas, that results in all of them failing the test.  What class was this test for?

25)   Kent borrows his brother's car for the weekend.  What year, make and model is it?

26)   What is the name of the grocery store that the Deltas visit, and steal from?

27)   Initially Marion Wormer says she won't be able to attend the Delta's toga party, because of a prior engagement.  What is this event?

28)   What is the name of Kent's girlfriend from home?

29)   After her "encounter" with Otter, Marion Wormer is scheduled to go on vacation.  According to the school paper, where is she going?

30)   At the disciplinary court meeting, Neidermeyer lists four violations that the Delta house has allegedly committed.  What are they?

31)   On what date is this hearing held?

32)   According to Neidermeyer, what did his father do in Korea?

33)   What is the name of the women's college that Otter and three others visit to trick four ladies into dating them?

34)   Otter pretends to be the tragically deceased Fawn Leibowitz's boyfriend.  Where was Fawn from?

35)   What is the name of Fawn's roommate?

36)   What fake name does Otter use with Fawn's roommate?

37)   What is the name of the woman working the dorm reception desk?  (She also goes on the date with the Deltas.)

38)   What tavern do the Deltas take their college dates that night?

39)   At this establishment, where we see Otis Day and the Knights again, what is Boon's drink order?

40)   The Omegas trick Otter into going to a hotel, where they beat him up.  What is the name of this place, and where is it located?

41)   Of the five Delta grade point averages that Dean Wormer mentions, what is the highest?

42)   Larry has the highest grade point average for the pledge class.  What is it?

43)   What time do the Deltas spring their trap at the Faber Homecoming Parade?

44)   What is the name of Larry's underage girlfriend?  (It's never said, but is listed in the credits.)

45)   At the end, there is text giving information about what happens to several of the main characters.  According to these, which two characters will end up living very close to each other?  (Not including characters who marry each other.)

46)   During the entire movie, we see five types of animals on screen.  Name these types.

47)   Of the three people who wrote the movie's script, two also have acting roles.  Name the writers, and their characters.

48)   What year, make, and model car does Otter own?

49)   One of the floats in the parade is of a giant black hand and a white hand clasping each other.  (Both hands figure prominently is the mayhem that ensues.)  What fraternity built this float?

50)   What is the motto for the Delta frat?  (It's seen briefly on a cloth hanging.)

51)   What U.S. state is Faber set in?

Answers:

1)     Emil Faber, in 1904, according to his statue.  

2)     "Knowledge is good."  True, but kind of obvious and bland.

3)     Omega Theta Pi.

4)     Mohamet, Jugdish, Sidney, and Clayton.

5)     Terry Auerback.

6)     Carl Phillips.

7)     Speed Limit 45.

8)     Delta Tau Chi.  (In some scenes it's shown as Delta Chi Tau, but this is apparently the real name.)

9)     Marlene Desmond.

10)   The William Tell Overture.

11)   The Class of 1959.

12)   Dumping a truck load of Fizzies into the swim meet, delivering the medical school cadavers to the alumni dinner, filling the trees with underwear every Halloween, and exploding the toilets every spring.

13)   Harrisburg, presumably the Pennsylvania city.

14)   Everybody thought he had brain damage.

15)   7.

16)   "Weasel" and "Mothball."

17)   4, including Chip (played by Kevin Bacon).

18)   He's a little long winded, he doesn't translate well into our generation, and his jokes are terrible.

19)   Yellow and blue.

20)   Four and a half years. 

21)   Trooper.

22)   It's a Star Model B, which is made in Spain.

23)   Three Oldsmobiles.  (Although car fans note that in the eventual parade, we only see Buicks and Cadillacs.)

24)   Psychology 101.

25)   It's a 1964 Lincoln Continental.  Since the movie is set in late 1962, this is a slight anachronism.

26)   The Food King.

27)   The damn Senior Honors Dinner.

28)   Sissy.

29)   Sarasota Springs.  Presumable the one in the state of New York .

30)   Providing alcohol to freshman during Pledge Week, and after established drinking hours, having a deficient grade point average for 5 consecutive semesters, providing dangerous narcotic diet pills to members during midterm exam week, and having a toga party, which had over 2 dozen complaints of perversions too profound and disgusting to discuss.

31)   November 15, 1962.

32)   He was an infantry officer.

33)   Emily Dickinson College.  Dickinson was a real person, obviously, but this college is fictitious.

34)   Fort Wayne, Indiana.

35)   Shelly Dubinsky.

36)   Frank Lymon, which is also the name of a famous 1950's and 60's singer.

37)   Brunella.

38)   The Dexter Lake Club.  Which was a real place, but is sadly closed now.

39)   A double rock and rye, and 7 Carlings.  Presumably the latter were Carling Black Label beers.

40)   The Rainbow Motel, on Old Mill Road.

41)   A 1.8 (4 C's and an F) by Delta President Robert Hoover.

42)   A 1.2 (2 C's, 2 D's, and an F).

43)   11 am., according to their watches.  (Well, except for Bluto's)

44)   Clorette DePasto.  

45)   Babs Jansen becomes a tour guide at Universal Studios in Hollywood, California, which is a part of Los Angeles.  Eric Stratton (Otter) becomes a gynecologist in Beverly Hills, which is a suburb of Los Angeles.

46)   There are several goldfish in the "breast aquariums" in the Delta basement bar.  Neidermeyer's horse is seen several times, before its demise.  Jennings has a cat.  A cow is seen being removed from the Delta house by the moving company after the Delta guys are kicked off campus.  An elephant is walking the streets as part of the Homecoming parade.  Also, this one doesn't count because it wasn't intended, but apparently you can see a mouse running across the building steps right before Bluto and the boys lead the horse into Wormer's office.

47)   Chris Miller plays Curtis Wayne Fuller ("Hardbar").  The late Doug Kenney plays Dwayne Storkman ("Stork").  Harold Ramis doesn't appear in the movie.

48)   It's a 1959 Chevrolet Corvette.  There's some vagueness about the exact model, but evidently a C or a C1.

49)   Zeta Beta Tau, or ZBT for short.

50)   Ars gratia artis, which according to Google translate is Latin for "The grace of art."  Another source rendered it as being roughly "art for art's sake."  

51)   It's complicated.  The outdoor scenes were mostly shot on the University of Oregon's Eugene campus.  So various U of Oregon buildings and areas can be identified.  The town where the parade is at the end, and the tavern the guys take the college ladies to are also both in Oregon.  However, the filmmakers don't actually mention Oregon at all (The University of Oregon specifically demanded this), or any state.  The one clue is during the disciplinary hearing in the classroom, when there's a state flag for Tennessee seen.  Online sources claim that Faber is supposed to be set in Pennsylvania, but for that latter scene they couldn't find a PA flag that was big enough, so they went with the Tennesse one.  Also, Faber College, and the town of Faber are fictional, obviously.  There is a tiny community called Faber in Virginia, but clearly this is a coincidence, and not what the filmmakers intended.

 

 

Exotic/Disgusting Foods and Beverages Forum--A Fruit and Two Veggies From Peru

      Today's topic is going to be a couple of revisits.  I've done several posts about Peruvian things--most notably some soft drinks from that nation on May 26, 2018.  Also, I wrote about artichokes about a year ago, on February 12, 2022.  And I covered pigeon peas in my post on February 10, 2018.  But, I didn't talk about  Peruvian artichokes specifically before.  I also don't think I've mentioned blueberries before, either, much less ones from Peru.  So here we are.

     The artichokes came from the Reese brand.  This company was started by a man named Max H. Ries, who evidently decided to change the spelling of his surname for the company.  Ries immigrated to Chicago, IL in the U.S. from Germany in 1939.  Although he was formerly employed in the textile industry, he decided to start a business selling food in America.  The company started to focus on importing specialty foods from other countries in the 1940's, such as Swiss cheese, Fois Gras, kangaroo steaks, fried butterflies, chocolate covered ants, hornets, and baby bees.  In the 1950's, the business also being growing their own unusual crops, such as mini versions of corn and watermelons.  The company president, Morris Kushner, even appeared on the Groucho Marx television program in 1960 to show and talk about their edible ants and caterpillars.  In the late 1960's Reese was sold to PET, INC, out of St. Louis.  In 1972, PET was then sold to a consortium of food distributers.  The overall company name was changed from Reese Finer Foods to World Finer Foods in 1994.  Aside from many different varieties of artichokes, the Reese brand also makes canned seafood, hearts of palm, capers, rice, jellies, sauces, specialty vegetables, and fruit.  

     The blueberries I tried were from Naturipe Farms, out of California.  This company dates back to 1917, when it was known as Naturipe Berry Growers.  Like Reese, Naturipe is actually made up of several different operations merged together.  The other parts are Hortifrut S.A., MBG Marketing, and Munger Farms.  The current head honchos are both Fergusons--Rich is the president, and Dwight is the CEO.  (I assume that they are father and son, or brothers, but I couldn't determine exactly what their relationship is.)  Aside from blueberries, Naturipe also sells strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, cranberries, and avocados.  Some of their fruit is organic, and some not.  Their berries are grown all around the Western Hemisphere, depending on the season.  During March through October their blueberries are grown throughout the U.S. and Canada.  From October through March they're cultivated in Chile, Peru, Uruguay, Argentina, and parts of Mexico.  Or, basically, they grow their berries whenever it's spring, summer, and early fall in all the countries their farms are located in.  

     The pigeon peas I tried were from the Wakefern company, which is associated with the Shop-Rite supermarket chain.  I got into more detail in my previous post on pigeon peas on February 10, 2018.  So I won't repeat myself here--you can read that post if you're interested.

Reese quartered artichoke hearts:  (Grown in Peru.)  These had yellowish-white centers, surrounded by greenish-white outer "wrappings," layered like an onion.  I tried these in several ways.

    Plain:  They kind of produce a squeaking sound when bitten.  They tasted a little vinegar-y, but no vinegar was listed on the can's ingredients.  Kind of slimy.  Not a great taste.  Not that strong.  And not my thing.

    With Smart Ones Santa Fe rice and beans:  Slightly better, but not much.  Not a great pairing.  Still squeaky and rather unpleasant.

    With Smart Ones mini rigatoni in a vodka cream sauce:  Again, the other ingredients hide the artichokes's weak taste some, but not enough.  Still the negative artichoke flavor underneath.

    With Smart Ones 3 cheese ziti with meatballs:  Same as above.  This was probably the best "coverer" of the bunch, but the artichoke taste was still lurking underneath.  Still not good.  I've given artichokes quite a few chances, and I've concluded I just don't like them.  I think I'm done trying.

Wakefern pigeon peas, grown in Peru:  These were brown, with the typical small bean shape.  I also tried these in various ways.

    Plain:  Bland.  Regular bean taste, I guess. Chewier than regular baked beans.  Not bad, but not especially good, either.  Not a strong taste either way.

    With Smart Ones Santa Fe rice and beans:  I couldn't really taste these mixed in with the rice and other beans.  So it definitely improved the experience.  Apparently if combined with other beans, spices, a good sauce, etc., these are a decent base.

    With Smart Ones mini rigatoni in a vodka cream sauce:  The peas kind of disappear.  I could just detect the beans by texture, as the pasta and cheese overpowered them.  So a better way to eat them, I suppose.

   With Smart Ones 3 cheese ziti with meatballs:  This was probably the best combo.  Still mostly hidden, but more pleasant addition to the pasta.  Overall then, pigeon peas are okay as long as they're mixed up in the right meals.

Naturipe blueberries:  These were probably the biggest blueberries I've ever seen--the diameter of each one was about inch (about 2.5 cm.)!  I just had these plain.  Also had big flavor, being very juicy and tasty.  These were the best blueberries I can remember ever eating.  Therefore, when in comes to blueberries, it seems like my opinion is that the bigger the better.  Really excellent.

     A final note about color and blueberries.  According to the Naturipe website, a silvery sheen on them is good, as this is naturally released by them to protect versus the sun.  Conversely, if your blueberries are reddish, that's bad.  That means they're unripe and shouldn't be eaten.  And unlike some other fruits, blueberries can't ripen after they've been picked, so you can't just hold on to them and wait for them to ripen.  Finally, if your blueberries are any other color, you've probably either mistaken another berry for a blueberry, or else something very wrong is happening..

     Finally, finally, I sure wish Reese still marketed extremely unusual products such as the ants, bees, hornets, mini watermelons, etc.  Alas, now they just seem to sell normal, less interesting foods.  Oh well.

Exotic/Disgusting Foods and Beverages Forum--American/Thai Gummy Candies

      Okay, admittedly, this one is kind of a stretch--it's a bit questionable that today's topic is labeled as being "exotic," since it comes from a U.S.-based company.  However, the candies were actually made in Thailand, at an alternate manufacturing plant.  So, I'm counting it, barely.  Anyway, today's post is about Jelly Belly gummies.

     As a refreshing change, the official Jelly Belly website had a good amount of information about the products offered, and a decent amount about the company's history.  On that note, our story begins over 150 years ago.  Gustav Goelitz left his native Germany and immigrated to the United States in 1866.  Three years later he started a candy business in Belleville, Illinois.  He was assisted by his brothers Albert and George.  The Goelitz company flourished, and continued through many of the family's generations.  In 1898 the business started making a new type of candy, called mellocremes (aka butter creams), along with their version of the later Halloween standard candy corn.  (Goelitz didn't invent candy corn though--they just did their take on an established candy.)  The sugar rationing during World War II forced Goelitz to make other kinds of candy, such as mint wafers.  By the 1960's the business started making mini jelly beans.  In 1976 another candy manufacturer, David Klein, collaborated with Goelitz to revamp their jelly beans, including 8 new flavors, into the new Jelly Belly line, named after famous American bluesman Lead Belly.  These new beans were hugely successful, and the 1980's the number of flavors offered was in the 40's.  At around the same time Goelitz began to export to other countries--to Canada in 1977, and to the U.K. in 1982.  The Jelly Belly brand got a major boost in fame and popularity due to one of its biggest fans.  A former actor, then California Governor, and finally U.S. President Ronald Reagan was noted for scarfing down tons of this candy.  There were more famous consumers, too.  Jelly Bellies were the first jelly beans taken into space, going up in the space shuttle Challenger in 1983.  (Tragically, this was the shuttle that exploded in 1986, killing all the astronauts on board.)  In 2001 Goelitz changed its name to the Jelly Belly Candy Company.  The company has shown an almost ridiculous willingness to experiment with different Jelly Belly flavors, too.  The buttered popcorn one, developed in 1989, was billed as the first savory jelly bean.  Jelly bean sours came about in 1993.  Then, in 2000, an agreement was forged, and Jelly Belly flavors were made matching a character from the "Harry Potter" series.  These Bertie Botts' flavors were intentionally revolting-sounding, such as skunk spray, earwax, dirt, and even vomit.  Special carbohydrate-infused Jelly Bellies were developed in 2005 for athletes.  To date there are more than 50 Jelly Belly flavors--from the traditional, regular fruit ones like lemon and orange, to more complicated ones like orange sherbet and chili mango, on to more collaborations with other products, such as an A&W Root Beer-flavored kind.  Plus more repulsive flavors such as booger and rotten eggs.  Aside from the flagship Jelly Belly jelly beans, the company also markets chocolates, candy corn, licorice, and, obviously, gummies.  The business's headquarters are now in Fairfield, California, where you can visit the museum, ride the train, have a wine and candy tasting event, and tour the factory.  Their Thailand plant opened in 2008.

Jelly Belly gummies, lemon flavor:  These were bean shaped, yellow in color, and had the standard "Jelly Belly" embossment on them.  They had the usual soft, chewy, and sticky gummy texture.  Decent lemon flavor.  Good gummy.  Not awesome, but tasty.

Jelly Belly gummies, berry blue flavor:  These were the same size and shape as the previous, with the company name stamp, and a light blue hue.  Same texture, too.  Good berry flavor.  Again, not great, but more than solid.

Jelly Belly gummies, very cherry flavor:  Identical size, shape, embossment, and texture as the others.  Purplish-red color.  And again, good but not great.  Decent cherry flavor.

Jelly Belly gummies, orange flavor:  Same size, shape, embossment, and texture as the rest.  Orange hue, clearly.  Recognizable orange flavor.  And once again decent but not spectacular.

Jelly Belly gummies, green apple flavor:  Same old drill.  Only difference was that these were light green in color.  And not to be a broken record, but as with all the others, I could detect the billed flavor, and it resulted in a solid, but not great gummy experience.

     I should say that historically jelly beans weren't a big deal for me.  They were the kind of candy that I'd eat if it was available, but they weren't my favorite or anything.  I don't even recall what brands I tried growing up--they didn't make a strong enough impression on me to remember.  That admitted, I don't really recall seeing Jelly Bellies on the shelves--maybe they weren't commonly sold in the Mid Atlantic States, and were instead more of a Mid West or West thing, given where their factories were located.  But I definitely will buy the jelly bean forms of Jelly Bellies if I see them available, to get the full company effect.  I'd particularly like to try their gross flavors, out of morbid curiosity.  I wonder what the vomit and earwax and dirt ones taste like--surely it's not like the real thing, right?  And if not, what non-nauseating flavor approximates these?  I imagine very weird and spirited arguments about this going on in the flavor laboratories.  When I get these culinary experiences I'll of course update this blog post.